Captain Black?

I remember smoking Captain Black White infrequently in the mid to late 1970s, maybe '72-'73 the first time. There were bulk versions under various names as I recall which were similar. Argosy came out about 30 years ago too as something like the CB versions.

Did you find it to be better then than now? I first smoked it in the early 80's and it was zesty and flavorful, without a bite.
Now, it has no flavor, or zestiness.
I remember the metal steel can it came in with the little pry-up lever. When they changed to the cardboard can, the tobacco seemed to change too. Is it just me or do you find this to be true?

At the Charatan Focus Group Meeting during the 2008 Chicago Pipe Show, Tad Gage was the guest speaker and he stated that it was Herman Lane who developed and created the blend but who hated it and would not smoke it.

I do believe it was the early 1970's. I remember buying it for my Dad back then for Christmas, which also was his birthday. Until then he smoked Holiday Mixture. He really loved Capt'n. Black Gold and I would have to say it was that aroma that drew me to the pipe. I don't really smoke it anymore but if I ever catch a whiff of it I cannot help but be brought back to memories of my Dad.

Lou, NY

According to American Tobacco internal papers Captain Black was introduced around 1972.

By the way, in the course of their internal studying of CB they found that CB contained 18-23 per cents of propylene glycol. I still find it difficult to believe.

... is the retailer's friend and not the pipe smokers friend.

PG will preserve freshness (moisture) so a bag of tobacco can sit on a shelf for months and feel fresh when you but it. You will be so happy until you light up and experience the goop and the bite. (PG) is not your friend.

By the way, C&D uses no PG!

I recollect that in manufacturing of their aromatic line they use PG since, I guess, it facilitates flavoring. Propylene glycol not only holds the moisture and the aroma but also prevents mold growth. It's quite multi-functioning thing but people say that it imparts smoking significantly.

Based on my conversations with Craig Tarler, the only liquid applied to their blends is distilled water. Now, flavoring is something else. C&D flavoring does have a base of PG as well as alcohol depending upon the particular flavor. PG acts to preserve the flavor agent.

However, according to Craig, C&D does not apply PG as a moisture preservative to any of their blends.

the fact that Craig doesn't add it does not mean that C&D blends are PG-free, since it is quite possible, if not likely, that Craig's suppliers use it for all the reasons Misha mentions.

I thought their flavors are alcohol solutions but they add PG together with water before flavoring. Now I see. I wish I could go there and have a talk (I am very bad at talking over the phone). For example, I know they don't do casing but they order their leaves from a processor who might work with the leaves according to C&D specifications.

The problem is that it is not easy to make a casual conversation about things like this. The market of premium tobaccos seems to be quite small, fragile, and full of sh.. uh, I mean, superstitions. For example, if I would ask how they prevent mold growth it would not imply that I think that their tobacco will go mold (there were some heated pointless discussions about that in the net), but from the business point of view it's in the best C&D's interests to keep responses as neutral as possible. Probably I didn't explain it good, whence another example. I don't care about flavoring, meaning I wouldn't find it bad if, say, C&D had wet their Perique by prune juice before blending (I surely would like to know why but that's because I'm curious about such kind of stuff and this is the different story). However, as you know and as you said it in the other thread, people are not rarely prefer "natural" tobaccos, so said prune juice would quickly turn into "aromatics" and sales would be hurt.

Therefore I would be reluctant even to start such kind of topic with an active manufacturer (unless we had established a trust relationship, which will never happen as I'm a recluse). I don't want to put him into an awkward position of looking for "politically correct" sounding answers and at the same time I don't like to be talked to as I'm an idiot. Issues, issues... I've got to look for a good shrink.

As you know few years back people used an advanced methods for looking for PG in a few popular blends. If I remember correct some trace amount of PG was found in some (but not all) C&D's blends and the words were said that the processor could add to leaves, say, to prevent molding without even notifying C&D since the amount is small. I don't know about this part but I do believe that C&D do not add intentionally PG to their premium blends.

This PG issue is also one of those big issues, which disproportionally attracts people attention.

Here's the way it goes at C&D based on my experience with C&D's flavorings which I have used myself:

The flavoring comes in a 750ml bottle (typical) that sells for $50 to $100 USD. Let's use the example of "Almond" flavoring.
This bottle of Almond flavoring is provided by a flavor vendor to C&D. It is a highly concentrated liquid that varies in consistency from a light syrup to almost water-like depending on the ingredients. It is generally used at 100% and not watered down.

After mixing the tobacco's by hand (all hand blending at C&D in small batches) the tobacco is hand sprinklered with a bottle of distilled water to bring it to the proper moisture level. Then, the flavor or combination of flavors is mixed and hand sprayed on the tobacco blend, usually in miniscule amounts, due to the highly concentrated flavor agent.

For example, one such flavor, according to Craig, says to use one ounce to 50 pounds of dough! This stuff is strong. But that is good so as not to over moisten the blend.

The tobacco is left to dry on the table until ready for packaging.

A typical pound of aromatic blend is treated with approximately one ounce of a flavor or flavor mixture.

It is this "flavor agent" that has the PG and/or alcohol in it as a base.

You'd have to have a working knowledge of how pipe tobaccos are created, starting from the very beginnings to the very end.

It is usually rightly assumed that tobacco is a plant, and therefore has to be grown in a field by a farmer. It is also generally accepted knowledge that the location, soil and weather conditions have a significant impact on the leaf's properties. What is already less known is that these properties also change from the time of harvest, and which leaves on the plants are harvested.

Then, when those leaves are all plucked, the farmer needs to store them, and keep them in as good a condition as possible. How this happens, I do not known, but I would make an estimated guess by saying that a burley farmer in Malawi will use different methods than one in Kentucky.

The next phase is the tobacco transport from the farm to the auction houses, where the transport is often taken care of by external companies, who also have their own methods and use. I do not know which ones, and this is probably partly an industry secret to some extent. So it is unknown if PG is used there, or not.

Then there's the handling of the leaf at the auction house, where it can be bought by tobacco processors, who will then hire some (or the same) company to ship it, store it and transport it to the required locations. I know that for western europe Tabaknatie in Antwerp/Hamburg is the largest one doing this, if not the only one. And highly specialized at that also. I assume similar companies exist in the USA and elsewhere. But what they do to the leaf to preserve it in proper condition is, once again, not known. It could be that PG is added there, as a mold prevention, or even something else. We can't say for certain.

After that, the leaf is moved and shipped to production facilities, in the form they choose (raw, pre-cut, partially blended, whatever) which is then used to turn it into the end product we know. In other words, the blender, like C&D is one, is just the very last step in a long chain of events, and we as end-consumers do not even know what is happening to the leaf at that stage.

So Craig can very well say, in all honesty and truth, that he does not use any PG in any of his blends, but to make a bold statement that there will definitely be no PG in their blends at all might be too bold a statement.

As a mere end consumer trying to be somewhat informed, I think the best thing for me to do is disregard any rumors about the use of PG in any particular blend, or even about the properties PG adds to the smoking experience. All we can do is try the blend and see if we like it, fully understanding we may not have the slightest clue about what's in it.

Also, I don't really see the problem with PG per se, it is a widely used food-grade moisture-control agent or some such thing, used in food or dermatological products. Check that moisturizer, after-shave cream, or shampoo bottle sometime, or the ingredients list on some of the food you buy.

You'd be surprised.

Just a quick question: do the bottles have an ingredient listing on them?

Yet another aspect of the whole manufacturing process that is completely alien to me ...

I think that the amount of this stuff must play an important role, if a tobacco smokes cool and dry, I would not mind small amount of PG, to prohibit mold as an example..

on the other hand, if PG acts against micro organisms, aging would be futile... So, a VA that ages well, have a very low amount of PG present ?

Between auctioning and the actual production there is a long delay. Tobacco must be aged before it will go into a tin. How long it takes depends on particular leaf but, say, two years is not a rare exception. As I understand for flue-cured tobaccos at least 18 months is a must. Whoever stores it must take care quite a few problems. I think the main are bugs, decay, rats and to some extent mold. Long time ago people didn't use PG at this stage maybe now they do I don't know.

Then there is the actual manufacturing. It is not a one place process, unless we are talking about such monsters as Orlik, MacBaren, McClelland, which are mostly in full control over leaves, but even in their case there are Perique and Latakia. In States there are several huge processing companies, which prepare leaves for their customers, which are mostly cigarette producers. These processors also should work with different issues and who knows how they do it.

But what is important is the final product and I completely agree that it is of very low importance what kind of chemical elements will show up using analytical chromatography. If I were so picky about this I would grow my own (eventually I will but because of different reasons).

Who knows what actually happens during aging and how important is the role of microorganisms. In any case if it were so susceptible to such kind of things then alcohol would be as effective in subsiding aging while alcohol is the popular component in tobacco processing for ages.

this is just like any other compost, microorganisms are essential, as I see it. They act as the cathalyst for the sugar molecules in the VA to become something else.

Stoving is another matter.. then the heat would give the energy necessary, ie rendering a catalyst like bacteria unecessary..

microbiology is not for me to dabble in, I might be misstaken, but from what I know, this sounds plausible.

However, if you avoid "commercial shelf products" such as Mixture 79 or over the counter aromatics, and stick to the "high-end" tobacco manufacturer's like McClellan, C&D, and the European tinners, you can be pretty assured your palate is not being abused by over soaking of propylene glycol which while so called "food-grade" is a chemical also used in anti-freeze and has plenty of negative potential if you research it on the internet.

One manufacturer I avoid is a big one, Altadis. I have smoked a number of there samples sent to the local pipe club and this stuff is heavy with PG to preserve freshness and I can't tolerate the taste when compared to, for example, C&D brands or McClellan brands. To me, there is a very noticeable difference. Most readily available commercial blends are preserved on the blending end by PG. On the other hand, your "finer" high-end manufacturer's avoid the use of PG on their finishing end.

Most of the MPC members (regular posters) are smokers of these "finer" tobacco's. I am not knocking what someone prefers here. It is just that I smoked Half and Half for 39 years, loved it, and can't tolerate it now that I have become accustumed to what I refer to as "high-end" manufactured or tinned tobacco.

The big difference between these? Is PG.

For those companies that need to prepare their products in plastic bags or roll-up pouches for an extended potential shelf life, they have no choice but to use PG or by the time the tobacco is purchased, it is too dry and all the flavor has evaporated. It is just a fact of life.

Well, logic is not of a big help in such kind of questions. For example, what is the logic beyond Bright tobacco being more suitable for flue curing of separate leaves while Burley goes better when it's air-cured with leaves left on stalk (yes, people made experiments)?

By the mid-50s it was still not completely clear what is the origin of the aging process. In particular is fermentation because of microorganisms (suggested around 1891) or because of "intracellular enzymes" (suggested around 1899) of the leaf. There were experiments with fermenting sterilized tobacco, which showed that despite sterilization there are still transformations, which are related to the aging. Moreover, Orientals, for which fermentation is the vital part of processing, were found to contain natural antiseptic components, polyphenols.

And this regards pre-manufacturing aging, the standard practice, which is pretty old and is long known to be crucial for the quality of the final product. So, this is more or less well studied part of the whole process. What happens after the processed leaf is confined to a tin is the next part of the story. Is it continuation of the old processes or it's something completely new (there were experiments regarding pre-manufacturing aging in an air-tight environment, they were discouraging)? I've yet to get the general picture.

In Germany it is imperative to provide the information on additives to tobaccos. See, for example, here. With only a few exceptions, and I mean a few, that is less than probably a dozen, all blends (in German market) list PG as an additive. In particular, all Orlik made blends, including all Dunhills, have it with the only, I think, exception - Three Nuns.

PG is a necessity

When I was young I worked in tobacco in Kentucky for extra money

After growing and cutting it was hung in a barn untill dried if the weather was wet or damp sometimes it would mold in the barn

at the right time after it dried it would come into case(pliable)when it would be stripped from the stalk

if it dried correctly it was sent to a wharehouse for sale

From there it went to a redryer where it is dried to a crackly state
and packed in 55 gallon drums

From there it goes to storage where it sits and ages

it sits in a room that is cool and dry to prohibit mold and mildew

Some barrels will sit for a year or more before use depending on which big company bought it

after all tobacco is just like any other fruit or vegetable it will spoil if not preserved so PG would have to be used to keep the tobacco fresh untill use

so PG must
be used

It is not necessarily so. If humidity is not too high mold won't grow on tobacco. Of course, during air-curing one does not have control over weather but for ages people burned fire during cold and wet weather to avoid molding (I guess, this is how flue-curing was discovered after it was noticed that the color is fixed by sufficient raising the temperature). For Orientals the resistance of the leaf at normal air humidity, say, lower than 70 per cent, to the mold attack was convincingly shown long time ago. For air-cured tobaccos the rule of thumb is that temperature must be 10 F (or so) higher than humidity.

In any case propylene glycol started to appear in papers of big tobacco companies around mid-40s. It's mold prohibiting properties are not so exemplary, though. Around mid-70s more effective potassium sorbate came to the game and is widely used ever since. In 2000 version of the Germany list I've mentioned above I've found only two blends that do not have PG - Balkan Sobranie and Three Nuns - and they list potassium sorbate (kaliumsorbat in German).